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« “It’s a Brown-out” | Main | Danny Glover channels Pat Robertson »

Thursday, January 14, 2010

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allyHM

This is a subject for debate at an orthodox (as in, traditional and Bible-believing) Christian blog I frequent. I thought this passage found there in response was appropriate:

Luke 13:1 Now there were some present on that occasion who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 He answered them, "Do you think these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered these things? 3 No, I tell you! But unless you repent, you will all perish as well! 4 Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower in Siloam fell on them, do you think they were worse offenders than all the others who live in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you! But unless you repent you will all perish as well!"

allyHM

And someone else also said, in so many words, who is Pat Robertson or any of us to know what God would or would not do? Also, the Bible clearly tells us that the prince of this world - until Jesus comes again - is Satan. So....while I don't claim to know God's mind in this, it seems to me that God is not the one who caused anything to happen. Allowed, yes. Caused, no.

Dan Gill

God was not out of line. Robertson is. Robertson does not speak for God.

Mommynator

Once again, logical thought is absent, emotion is king.

If I tell you that if you jump off a cliff you will die, is that out of line? We KNOW that gravity will cause your body to fall and be smashed.

Same thing for God's laws. If people are continually and deliberately (note the deliberate part) breaking them, do you really believe God will just sit back and do nothing?

Again, I asked you all to think for five minutes. Apparently, you all chose reaction.

Gretchen

I don't necessarily disagree with you. My fear is that the voodoo practitioners will simply spin the earthquake to their own ends -- and more enslavement to witchcraft will ensue. They bank on fear and superstition. Prayers needed for a turning away from that awful system. Did you see Fr. Longenecker's post on Haiti's witchcraft?

http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2010/01/haiti-earthquake-caused-by-witchcraft.html

Rick

Mommynator, you've made solid, orthodox, biblical comments... and I have no problem with them... they're scriptural and in my opinion speak truth... however... the mistake Robertson's made in my view, in addition to timing, is the mistake best articulated here by Pete Wehner:

Pat Robertson’s argument is as neat and clean as a mathematical equation: God grants blessings and curses on nations and people based on their allegiance and obedience to Him. If things are going well, you’re living right; if things are going badly, you’re living wrong. And it is Robertson himself who can divine the hierarchy of sins that most trouble God.

But this view simply does not correspond with any serious understanding of Christianity. After all, the most important symbol in Christianity is the Cross, which represents suffering, agony, and death. When Jesus spoke to Ananias, who was instrumental in the conversion of the Apostle Paul, Ananias was told, “I will show [Paul] how much he must suffer for my name.” Christ Himself warned His disciples that they would suffer for His sake; most of them were martyred for their faith. The Apostle Peter speaks about the suffering that Christians will endure for doing good. And in the book of Romans we read that we are to rejoice in our suffering because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance produces character; and character produces hope. On and on it goes.

Wehner's point cannot be lost... the fact is that people doing good also suffer... and that in fact, that suffering is a mark, if you will, of that person's saintliness...

With that point comes our Christian duty to never speak for God as Robertson appeared to do... he can opine that it might be a possibility... but does it make sense that God's wrath would be poured out on a nation for something done hundreds of years ago? And can any of us know this with any certainty?

I think our time is best spent acting out God's love for those who need it... and right now, the Haitian people are in need... most dire need... and that's where our focus should be... how best to meet that need...

Mommynator

Jesus Himself said that rain falls on just and on unjust.

And if it's true that we can't point out what God said in His word, then why bother reading the epistles? After all, these are claimed to be what our practice of Christianity are based on, and if they can't speak with authority under the Holy Spirit's inspiration, then who can?

I think this is part of the wienification of Christianity in the last 60 years or so. We're afraid to speak the plain - even brutal - truth about peoples' actions and their consequences.

It does NOT negate loving or serving them or comforting or providing.

Mommynator

Oh, yes, and let's remember that Jesus never ignored peoples' sins. He blasted people who denied their sin, was tender with those who knew they sinned and told them not to do it any more.

You can't help a person out of sin if you ignore it.

Dan Gill

Give us a little credit, Mommynator. I thought about what you wrote, just as I thought about what Robertson said. There is no straight, simple cause/effect between a nation where some people practice voodoo, and an earthquake that devastates that nation. I can't say that the sin of the Haitians is greater than the sin of, say, Saudi Arabians. Or Americans for that matter.

I don't know of any nation that truly lives as God would have us live. Some are better than others, but some of the worst prosper. I think what stands out to me in God's judgement on nations in scripture is that it happens so rarely. And God even uses very wicked nations (like Assyria) to punish Israel, then relents from sending judgement on Assyria when Ninevah repents.

Don't expect any bile from me. I can disagree without bile.

Frank

Seeing punishment in an earthquake is as silly as seeing the future in a pile of chicken bones or tea leaves.

All this hocus pocus makes me ill. Earth quakes happpen. Maybe all of this snow in the Mid West is a sign? Am I being warned as I shovel?

Frank

This reminds me of Fred Phelps in the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas. They blame 9/11 and the war on the fact that America sins and is therefore being punished accordingly.

Me: I think that cloud looks like a herd of sheep.

Crazy People: I think that cloud looks like God's retribution.

allyHM

mommynator,

When you said, "Apparently, you all chose reaction," only two of us had commented at that point. I had commented twice and Dan Gill once. May I respectfully point out that the tone of that comment shows that you, in fact, are reacting - in a very negative and emotional way to our opinions? As Mr. Gill pointed out for himself, I also thought about what you wrote. I read it no less than 3 times just to make sure I understood what you were saying. I do not think I misunderstood. Again, I will say (in agreement with Rick's post) we do not know nor can we know the mind of God nor can we or Pat Robertson or anyone else speak for God. May I again respectfully point out that it seems you are speaking for God as if you know what God would or wouldn't do?

Do I think God has the power to destroy a nation literally with an earthquake if He sees fit? Absolutely.

Do I think that He would? I don't THINK He would, but I cannot say because I. Am. Not. God. The Bible tells me that God love me and all of His children and He would that none of them would be lost. This is not congruent with your theory. So, when put in a position of choosing between your theory and what the Bible tells me, respectfully, I'm afraid I'll have to go with the Bible.

FRANK

Get ready for the all encompassing, "The Lord works in mysterious ways," from somebody. That is such a poor alternative to reason and just means someone has run out of bread crumbs.

allyHM

What he said:

http://townhall.com/columnists/DavidRStokes/2010/01/17/the_case_for_catastrophic_agnosticism?page=full&comments=true

Roland

choices have consequences,so when playing with this acid sometimes it may spill on ya and ya get burnt. Stuff happeneds sometimes for a reason and sometime because its just does.What would have happened if I made the same statement Robertson did. I think the real problem is we are all to ready to dog Mr Robertson for stating the facts. True innocent lives have been lost in the quake.Hopefully this will help to awaken the Haitians to real change Heart Mind and Government..............OK who want to throw the first?

FRANK

He did not state facts, he started running his cake hole about his hocus-pocus bullshit and the consequences there of.

I pray to the diaper wearing cross eyed monkey, and he told me the earth quake had something to do with these mysterious things called tectonic plates. This all knowing monkey said the earth is made of plates that shift, build and release pressure, form lava and kinds of weird things.

The other day he told me the earth is round. That crazy monkey!

If it were your God warning or punishing Haiti wouldn't that negate free will. I want someone to love me freely, not fear me. You have a very aggressive and shallow God who apparently thinks that dropping a mulit ton building on an infant is somehow fair.

Wait for it... Here it comes... THE LORD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS. Suck it.

FRANK

I hit Post instead of Preview.

Roland... Following your logic anything at all can happen and you can see the grace of God in it. Anybody in your family ever die in a car accident, fall victim to rape, succumb to SIDS, lose to cancer, etc? I bet some where along the line it has happened but oh well it was just God sending you a memo written in the blood of your own family.

Was that too harsh? How in the hell do you think a Haitian holding their dying family member would feel about your holy opinion? It's people suffering, period. Either help or just shut it.

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