Harley Davidson answers the doom and gloomers

The Associated Press reports that everything seemingly is spinning out of control:

Is everything spinning out of control?

Midwestern levees are bursting. Polar bears are adrift. Gas prices are skyrocketing. Home values are abysmal. Air fares, college tuition and health care border on unaffordable. Wars without end rage in Iraq, Afghanistan and against terrorism.

Horatio Alger, twist in your grave.

The can-do, bootstrap approach embedded in the American psyche is under assault. Eroding it is a dour powerlessness that is chipping away at the country's sturdy conviction that destiny can be commanded with sheer courage and perseverance.

The sense of helplessness is even reflected in this year's presidential election. Each contender offers a sense of order — and hope. Republican John McCain promises an experienced hand in a frightening time. Democrat Barack Obama promises bright and shiny change, and his large crowds believe his exhortation, "Yes, we can."

Even so, a battered public seems discouraged by the onslaught of dispiriting things. An Associated Press-Ipsos poll says a barrel-scraping 17 percent of people surveyed believe the country is moving in the right direction. That is the lowest reading since the survey began in 2003.

Feeling the fear?  I mean, if you aren't, then you must seriously be out of touch with reality.  Or at least the reality being foisted on us by a fear-mongering press and the idiots who buy into the mindset.

Stepping into that fray comes Harley Davidson:

Nicely done Harley... so very nicely done.

We don't need effeminate, limp-wristed metrosexual hand-wringers, fresh from getting their eyebrows plucked and carrying their man-purses, telling us how bad things are.  The reality is that things could be oh so much worse.  What we do need is someone to step up and remind us that we've overcome one helluva lot more in our not too distant past and the smart people of Harley Davidson are filling the void.

Hey John McCain... you're an American hero who's proven to be of a certain mettle.

Learn from Harley Davidson. 

Fear sucks (and it doesn't last long), so screw it, let's ride.

Amen.

Comments

[MMM]

Last line of post.
Visualize:
MMMe.
Putting up double handed rock star salute and giving my best rebel yell.

In case this is untranslateable:
GodSpot Hit. Score.

[mkk]

HITLER WAS CLONED AND HAS STOLEN THE WORLD!!

This should help people understand why the US is as it is today.

[Locutisprime]

Those who live their lives based upon ad campaigns and slogans die young. And for the most part never even realized what they missed.

[BroKen]

I think you're right Mr. Prime.

My take was that the ad was escapist. It says we as a nation came out stronger "because asphalt and chrome put distance between you and whatever the world threw at you." RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!

And does the rumble of a Milwalkee vibrator really drown out the evening news? MAKE THE WORLD GO AWAY!

Of course, you have a point, Rick. But the attitude of the ad is not masculine, it is MACHO. Quite a difference there, my friend.

[Rick]

Well... I'll admit that I've re-typed this response because my initial response while reading Ken's comments rhymes with wool spit.

Escapist? Well... from manufactured crises meant to buck up an agenda or more likely the politician who claims he can save us from it all... yea, I'll escape that... wool spit.

The evening news needs to be drowned out Ken... that's the freakin' point man... it's chock full of alarmist crap that's largely made up... and that world needs to go away...

The attitude of the ad is made of up of the same stuff that this country used to be made up of... that before succumbing to weak-kneed leftists, pie-in-the-sky utopianists and Church of Chicken Little protagonists.

To knock the ad and ignore it's juxtaposition with the AP story that led this post is... well... it's crap. Pure and simple.

You missed the point entirely Ken. By a country mile.

[Leslie]

The western world has bought into a culture of fear, so when people or groups come out choosing to ignore fear, it is viewed negatively as escapist or ignoring reality because in a culture of fear all that exists are things to fear.

But, by looking away from the waves to Christ and men have walked on water.

Is that escapism?

[BroKen]

I got your point and said so. "Of course, you have a point, Rick." But I was also adding my own point and that is that much of the "biker" mentality is macho rather than masculine. That's all. Do you disagree?

Leslie, no. Coming to Christ is not escapism. But neither is it masculine. (Manly, perhaps, but not masculine.) Now, had the ad suggested that people let their fears bring them to Christ rather than strap on a Harley and rumble away, my enthusiasm for the ad would have far exceeded Rick's.

[Leslie]

Evidently I'm unfamiliar with the definition of masculine.

[Rick]

Ken, your attempt to distinguish masculine, macho and manly is going well over my head... it's the kind of double-speak and nuance that frankly I abhor... what in hell are you attempting to say here?

You most certainly missed the point of this post... and again I say by a country mile... and your attempt to come back and rationalize that miss has missed by a country mile and a half...

If someone as bright as Leslie is having a tough time with your definitions, I'm going to less than gently suggest that you need to clarify...

And while doing so, why not be as clear as possible on what it is about this post that has your goat... thus far, you've done nothing more than dig the hole you're standing in more than a little deeper.

[BroKen]

I doubt that you are unfamiliar with THE definition, but perhaps you are unfamiliar with mine.

I am using "masculine" as synonymous with "male." You probably would make "masculine" more synonymous with "manly." Here is the distinction I see.

A male is essentially an initiator or transmitter to the female responder or receiver. Sometimes we call things male simply because of their shape (a male plug) but sometimes both shape and funtion are male. A key, for instance, has the shape and also brings information. There is a transmission that opens the (female) lock. Other transmissions don't.

From this comes some human elements of "masculine" like command and control. We men like to control things whether it's the TV or making ripples in a pond. We want to transmit orders and have them received and responded to. So, a general, in this sense, is more masculine than a private whatever their gender.

We men also like tools which allow us to extend and enhance our transmission and the likely response. A wrench or sword is nice, but a gun (Makita or Colt) is better. An ICBM or a robot on Mars is perhaps the best of all.

This human masculinity often deteriorates into the macho. "Macho" is the male image distorted by exaggerating the command and control aspects without moderating influences like responsibility and humility.

Those moderating influences I would call manly. So, for instance, it was not exactly masculine for Sir Walter Raleigh to put his cloak over the puddle. It was manly. It was a sacrifice, which is manly, but not masculine and certainly not macho.

Now, back to the ad. Consider it's final advice for dealing with fear. "Screw it!" What does that mean exactly? Have sex with it? Make love to it? Dominate it? Make it cry? It is a male impluse to be sure. I would call it more macho than manly.

Christ is the ultimate alpha male. But He did not speak on His own behalf. He spoke what He received from the Father. Why? Because our problem is that we want to be the Alpha Male (whatever our gender.) We want the command and control. We want to be the initiator and transmitter. That desire has led to our current predicament. Christ demonstrates the way out is not to be "masculine" but to be a "man" like He was. The way to abundant life is to obey; even to lay down our lives.

So, the manly thing is to be feminine in the presence of God. He transmits. We receive. He initiates. We respond. He commands. We obey. That's why the Bible calls us, male and female, the Bride of Christ.

Hope that helps you understand where I'm coming from.

[BroKen]

OK, Rick.

I know you love your bikes and attacking that ad is probably a bit like peeing in your gas tank. But here is my experience.

I used to live in Sturgis. No, not South Dakota, but we had a rally of our own. When I moved there, I wanted to keep an open mind. I toured the grounds as they were setting up. The Christian Motorcycle Association was there, thank God. During the tour there was nothing really objectionable except the guys holding signs "SHOW US YOUR TITS" Call me a prude, but I didn't show them. It seemed so sophmoric and adolescent. It was sometime later I saw video of the drunken debachery and worse.

Many merchants in town loved the rally. They kept saying, "It's the locals who get out of control. The thousands who come to the rally know they have to be at work on Monday. They don't act up. Why, some of them are doctors and lawyers! It's only a small fraction that go really wild." So, I said, "Great! Let's advertize a 'family friendly' weekend. Bring the kids and we'll ride our Hogs and have wonderful time." Would attendance go up or down? Of course it would go down. You see, maybe only 5% act up, but the vast majority come to watch that 5%! That's the show. That's the draw.

One year there was a woman stranded by her man at the rally. He had had enough, so he left and she had no way to get home. We had to step in an help. Just one small expression of the dark side of the rally.

I don't really have anything against bikes or bikers. I've had the CMA in my church and I've preached myself that the freedom from LAW that bikers seek is to be found in Christ Jesus.

But much of that lifestyle is a lie. A twisted expression of selfish ego. "Machismo" is just a part of it. So, I do have something against those who promote the destructive lie in order to profit themselves. That includes the business men where I lived and, yes, perhaps even Harley-Davidson. A fitting name for them is "pimp." There, how's that for brutally honest.

I hope the hole I have dug (if I have dug a hole) is not too deep for you to reach in and pull me out. If it is too deep, just place the manhole cover and carry on.

[Mommynator]

I have to be honest (hah, for this website), I don't get the controversy.

This is a motorcycle commercial. Motorcycles are usually associated with men, liberty, the open road, people who are not afraid (ever tried to ride one?), etc.

No, the solution to world problems is not to ride a Harley, but neither is it to cower behind our couches after watching the news. To me, this commercial said that instead of fear, we should be positive and DO something - ride your Harley and let the wind clear your brain so you can do something or be strong and face something.

[EllDee]

Broken,
You wrote: "Now, back to the ad. Consider it's final advice for dealing with fear. "Screw it!" What does that mean exactly? Have sex with it? Make love to it? Dominate it? Make it cry? It is a male impluse to be sure. I would call it more macho than manly."

I am a female rider. What on earth makes you think that the term "screw it" is associated with making love, having sex or domination here. It is used as a euphemism for saying forget the world, forget your problems you have right now, enjoy the fresh open air God gave you. Is there something underlying here that's in your brain? Never in a million years would I have thought it meant any of your definitions.

As a female rider, I have also chosen to keep my shirt and undergarments on, as have every other female biker I have known. Makes me wonder if you were seeking out the ones who were taking their shirts off. From what I read, you chose to go to this rally (with your family)knowing full well what to expect. I equate this to you going to a large bar with your children and wondering why everyone was getting wasted on alcohol. It was your decision to go and see what happens here. And then you have the nerve to judge their behavior, stating if it were a family friendly atmosphere none of this would have happened. No, the behavior of the more intoxicated crowd is not to be excused, but you knew this would happen and yet you still went. Something underlying here? You said 5% were the ill-mannered ones. Yet, you seem to forget about the other 95% that were better behaved. There is sin in EVERY crowd, even those church goers you preach to weekly. I'd be willing to bet you could find the same if not a bigger ratio if you looked. At least the sinners admit they are sinners and not hide like some hypocrites in the church with a holier than thou attitude.

So, Broken, grow a set, be a macho man, a real man, a masculine man, a man that women can look up to. Because in the end, women need this. Women don't need a girly man, a feminine man. Women need a man who will hold up, who will love and protect, who can say "screw it" and not mean anything other than forget my bad day, let the wind blow my hair and the smells take over my senses, even if for just a brief moment.

[Rick]

Ken, Ken, Ken... where in hell to begin...

Let's begin with a confession. I'm trying my utmost here to remain restrained... to not simply let loose with unfiltered thoughts...

Your comments distinguishing terms I see to be rather synonymous and interchange-able was... well... a masterpiece... of psycho-babble mixed with some feminist theology and a few shards of traditional theological terms and phrases intended to appeal to those who might otherwise be offended, something that I could hear reverberating off the walls of an auditorium at Berkelely or in the hallways of some elitist seminary... and I can imagine that it might be well received at those places.

And perhaps there was a time where I might've nodded my head in hopeful acquiessence, thinking that wow, something so articulately expressed by someone who I deem to be of orthodox persuasion... I should sit and ponder the deeper meaning.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on the perspective), that time has passed. If the manly thing is to be feminine in the presence of God, color me uninterested. In fact, paint me as a male lesbian, a butchy one.

Any attempt by me to be feminine in God's presence would very quickly be seen by God (and anyone else there) to be a farce, a gimmick, an attempt to be someone I'm not, an attempt to be something other than what I am. So, I'll pass.

And your comments remind me why I'm so very glad that in the end I was deemed to be something other than worthy in the ordination process nearly 10 years ago now.

You see, I saw this mindset then. I saw that the church was attempting to make me out to be something other than what I am. And you now have joined the throng. Is there little wonder that men don't go to church? I mean seriously man... we need to be feminine in the presence of God? Are you passing out the frilly underwear to the men in the pews each Sunday? Or let me guess... there aren't many men... at least I'd think there wouldn't be if you're preaching this nonsense.

Now on to your slanderous and bigoted comments against bikers. I've been riding for four years this month. I've yet to see any rider flash me her boobs. Oh yea, they are a raucous bunch in many ways... people who work hard and play harder in some respects... but there are also just as regular as regular people can be... with their own foibles, character defects and whatever that you'd find any damned where. What's refreshing about these people to me however is that they're genuine. They're not plastic people putting on heirs and telling lies about how perfect their lives are.

In fact Ken... they seem to be the kind of people Jesus would hang with.

I'm going to less than gently suggest that you're leading a sequestered life man. That you need to hang out with people unafraid to admit that they're sinners whether they ride a Harley or not. You're coming across here as someone sitting in the nose-bleed section of life who doesn't want to mingle with the unclean.

Not very freakin' Christian... then again... based on my experience, it's so very Christian... and reason why I no longer hang with 'em.

[BroKen]

Ms. EllDee,

Thank you for your comment.

Concerning "screw it" check out this link and see that I am not totally wacko in my interpretation.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=screw+it

As for your interpretation:

"It is used as a euphemism for saying forget the world, forget your problems you have right now, enjoy the fresh open air God gave you."

That seems to make my original point that the ad was escapist. Thank you, again.

I'm glad you've kept your shirt on. I would point out that you didn't read my post very carefully. I did NOT take my family to the rally. I did NOT attend myself. I took a tour while the rally was being set up. I did not see any nudity then, only adolesent males requesting a flash. I did later see a video of debachery and so I express concerns about the real results of those festivities.

I do not forget the 95% that are better behaved and I am certainly aware that "respectable" folks are sinners, too. In fact, if you read carefully you would have seen where I called some of them "pimps"!

Now to your advice about my gonads, they seem to be functioning just fine. Once more I will say, Thank you.

[BroKen]

Rick,

There is much to respond to here. I don't have time right now. But thank you for your restraint.

Yes, bikers are exactly the kind of people Jesus hung with.

And quickly, what do YOU do with the Holy Spirit inspired image of the church as "the Bride of Christ"?

More later, I hope....

[BroKen]

My schedule changed suddenly and freed up some time. Yipeeee!

Rick,

One of the most troubling things for me in this thread was your statement that you abhor nuance. Seems to me that an understanding of subtle differences is an important consideration for critical thinking. The world is rarely as simple or as blackandwhite as we would wish.

So, my masterpiece, as you call it, was my attempt to define my terms for Leslie (who often wisely requests that people do so, but doesn't always get her request answered.)

If you take my definitions,

Masculine= biological male, initiator, transmitter and perhaps controller

Manly= those virtues associated with men but not necessarily masculine(male) like humility, courage, sacrifice, responsibility

Macho= a distorted male image of exaggerated command and control, which might be expressed by the comedian's "MALE CREEDO"; if you can't control it, KILL IT!

then you should understand what I was meaning in my earlier comments. If not, I am available for further clarification.

Now, Rick, if you don't like my definitions, then don't use them. But if you want to understand what I was saying, then you need to understand those nuances.

The funny thing is that I am pretty sure we agree here. You don't like the fact that I used "feminine" to describe receiving, responding and obeying. But am I to believe that you would refuse to do those things in the presence of God because you are too much of a man? Hardly.

Now, to "slanderous and bigoted comments." Rereading my comment, the only thing I see that could be construed as slanderous is my statement that "the vast majority come to watch that 5%(act up)" If I am wrong on that, I will publicly apologize to all. Convince me that if the 5% were restrained, then the attendance would continue to rise.

The rest of that comment was simply my experience. How is that slanderous or bigoted?

Do you deny that there are people in the "biker community" who abuse others sexually or physically or emotionally, with drugs or fists or whatever, all in the name of lawlessness? Is one a bigot or slanderer for pointing that out?

Perhaps my life is sequestered. I'm sorry I come off "holier than thou". I know I am not. If I act so, it is merely that tribute that vice must pay to virtue. So, tell me, when you see people caught up in the snare of their sin, hurting themselves and others, how do you deal with the pain?

[EllDee]

Broken,
"Do you deny that there are people in the "biker community" who abuse others sexually or physically or emotionally, with drugs or fists or whatever, all in the name of lawlessness? Is one a bigot or slanderer for pointing that out?" Nope, no denial here on this. But change the words also to "church community", only this is done all in the name of "God spoke to me."

As for the incorrect comments on your family, I apologize.

So you only saw what was on the television covering this show. Do you think for one moment the news would have covered a bunch of people walking around looking at exhibits. NO! That doesn't sell ratings. It's just like when a storm rips through town and tears the top off one house or a tree falls on one house. The news sensationalizes this one piece and makes it sound as if the storm tore up the town. Again, you seem to assume the entire event turned to nudity and debauchery.

As for your gonads, maybe they could use just a bit more testosterone flowing from them...just maybe.

[BroKen]

Ms. EllDee,

Your attempt to draw moral equivalence between the church and biker community is totally misplaced. While such actions do happen among church folk, they are NOT promoted or sanctioned. Your attempt reminds me of those misguided leftists who say our soldiers are just like terrorists because occasionally they kill innocent people. THERE IS NO EQUIVALENCE! When one promotes, sanctions and otherwise encourages lawlessness, one should expect, well, lawlessness.

>As for the incorrect comments on your family, I apologize.

No apology needed but it is accepted.

>Again, you seem to assume the entire event turned to nudity and debauchery.

No, I don't. You continue to be the one who makes assumptions. It was not a news report I saw. What I saw would never have made the evening news (unless it was nakednews.com or whatever that is) I don't know who made the video I saw but it seemed to be an amateur video to promote the event. There were sexually charged field games with folks who could barely walk and the evening crowning of Ms. Sturgis, in which the talent portion was all the same.

Now, I was told that the promoters no longer sponsor that event. They just let those who are so inclined to organize and run it themselves. So, they have washed their hands of it, so to speak (wink, wink. nudge, nudge.)

And your interest in my testicles is making me uncomfortable. Please stop.

[Rick]

Ken,

Your definitions of the words masculine, manly, macho and feminine vary greatly from the more traditional definitions... just check out dictionary.com for yourself... so your premise is skewed, little wonder we're arriving at differing conclusions, little wonder that someone as brilliant as Leslie would be confused by your word usage or that you have problems with something like "screw it" where you lay claim to the sexual meaning of the phrase while completely ignoring that in the context of this post, there is no sexual connotation. You don't have a leg to stand on here Ken. You've intellectualized this entire thread and turned into idiocy and have the gall to claim you're thinking critically.

Laughable. And not in any nuanced way.

And nuance has little to do with critical thinking in my view. The fact is that nuance is used as a bludgeon too many times by liberals to redefine what is clearly black and white. Nuance is used far too often to make things indistinguishable. And it's funny that your latest comments directed at EllDee would bring up moral equivalence. Aren't leftists the ones that are quick to claim that there are only nuanced differences between Bush and Hitler, our troops and Nazi Stormtroopers, terrorist acts and Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

As to whether or not your words against bikers are slanderous... I'm no lawyer, just someone who takes the traditional meaning of words (and not redefined words that suit your purposes) and then uses them as best I can. You slandered bikers. Plain and simple. Look it up. And you did this based solely on what you're claiming to be your experience. Nicely myopic wouldn't you say? Does your experience trump my own? Do you even know any bikers other than casually? I'm willing to bet that you don't. You've made some seriously ignorant statements based, it seems, solely on how Hollywood has caricatured bikers. I don't for a minute lay claim to the notion that bikers are angelic or that there aren't some who might fit the mold you're squeezing all bikers into but you painted with some pretty broad strokes and you did so in haughty and arrogant way. That's too bad. Especially coming from a pastor.

And finally, I'll end with your question as to what do I do with the Holy Spirit inspired image of the church as "the Bride of Christ"?

I'll answer it by telling you what I don't do with it. I don't make this odd leap into thinking that as a member of the church, I now need to start acting like a bride. That I need to assume a more feminine 'tude.

What I do with it is consider how a bride looks forward to being with the groom. How the bride looks to that day where she and her husband will unite and no longer be separate.

I long for Christ's presence as a bride longs to be in the presence of her husband.

That's about it. The rest that you propose I see to be more gobbledygook that only those who can't see the forest through the trees would be communicating.

Period.

[Leslie]

Ken, I see the nuances of your definitions. :) and I guess what makes me uncomfortable with them is masculine (as the biological male) is left with a negative cloud over it with the "perhaps controller" clause, while the halo on the feminine (receiving, responding, obeying) is shining with gleaming innocence.

The feminist movement has worked hard to teach us that the male-self is a disease to be either coped with or squelched, while femininity is a gift to be worn triumphantly in all its splendiferous glory.

All of humanity grapples with sin, but the traits of the gender itself...is it really something that needs to be suppressed in the sense that we need to be more like the other gender when approaching Christ? Gloria Steinem would probably agree I suppose.

God made Adam first. Why?

I'm not sure how literally you meant your more feminine comment, so it could be all this is a lot of talk over a figure of speech. On the other hand, it would be too bad if the destructive male-hating ideologies of the 60s and beyond are creeping in unnoticed.

[BroKen]

Leslie,

>Ken, I see the nuances of your definitions. :)

Thank you, thank you, thank you. See if you can convince Rick. :)

>masculine (as the biological male) is left with a negative cloud over it with the "perhaps controller" clause, while the halo on the feminine (receiving, responding, obeying) is shining with gleaming innocence.

Actually, the "perhaps controller" clause is there because the concept of leadership or control is not essentially part of biological maleness but can be derived from it. Now, why does "controller" have a negative cloud in your mind? Perhaps it is your experience with those twisted controllers who do not mitigate their authority with sacrifice and responsibility (Macho).

>gender itself...is it really something that needs to be suppressed in the sense that we need to be more like the other gender when approaching Christ?

No, it is not. Gender is a beautiful gift from God to be used as He intended. (I'm convinced it is designed as a model of the Godhead.) But we usually twist gender into more convenient forms. We can twist it by surpressing it. We can also twist it by exaggerating some aspects of it.

>God made Adam first. Why?

Um, maybe because he was an initiator and transmitter?

>I'm not sure how literally you meant your more feminine comment, so it could be all this is a lot of talk over a figure of speech.

Not very literally. Yep. Semantics. Sad, isn't it.

>On the other hand, it would be too bad if the destructive male-hating ideologies of the 60s and beyond are creeping in unnoticed.

Sure would. And it would be too bad if people beat up their friends because they sounded too hip. Squaresville, man. Like, totally uncool.

[BroKen]

Rick,

My definitions fit easily within the list at dictionary.com. "Manly" and "Macho" are defined almost exactly as I do, and while "masculine" has a much broader range of meaning than I gave it, it is not illegitimate to limit one's meaning to one definition. (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/masculine Masculine 1a: MALE)

Oh, and Rick, if you do not think the sexual connotation of "screw it" was intended, then you are VERY naive about language in general, and advertising in particular.

Now, if leftists use nuance to bludgeon, that is terrible. But that means they also use words and ideas. I guess we should throw those out, too.

Back to bigotry and slander. Help me here. Really. Help me. If I am slanderous and bigoted, I do not want to be. Show me specifically where I have offended. Help me see it. I am willing to repent.

>And you did this based solely on what you're claiming to be your experience.

That "claiming" is really uncalled for Rick. It was my experience. Could a friendship crumbling here? Please don't let it.

>Does your experience trump my own?

Of course not! Why would you think that I would think it would? YOU asked me why I had an issue with the ad. I told you my experience. Now, you say that I'm bigoted and slanderous. Is that fair?

>You've made some seriously ignorant statements based, it seems, solely on how Hollywood has caricatured bikers.

No, not Hollywood. But if I am ignorant, I am willing to be educated. Please, teach me.

>I don't for a minute lay claim to the notion that bikers are angelic or that there aren't some who might fit the mold you're squeezing all bikers into but you painted with some pretty broad strokes and you did so in haughty and arrogant way.

Why do you insist that I am squeezing all bikers into a mold or paint with broad strokes? Oh, was it the line about the majority coming to see the 5%? OK, I would love to be proven wrong. Have at it.

My experience is limited to 15-20 thousand who have come to a rally in Kentucky. And again, if you read my comment carefully, you would see that my ire is greatest for those respectable merchants who profit from debachery.

But, please, be specific and show me where I was slanderous and bigoted. Quotes please. Seriously, I want to repent.

Haughty and arrogant? I don't doubt it. But again it would help me if you provide some quotes and explanation.

>I long for Christ's presence as a bride longs to be in the presence of her husband.

Praise God from Whom all blessings flow. AMEN!

[Leslie]

>>Now, why does "controller" have a negative cloud in your mind?

All the men in my life have been great. I don't even have a rat-bastard, high-school boyfriend to tell about. The negative cloud came from your use of the word 'perhaps' which seemed to link to the fine line between acceptably controlling the remote and slippery slope of unacceptably dominating weaker things in a most macho way.

It doesn't matter, I suppose. Men are pigs and we'll all be happier when we simply come to accept it. :)

[BroKen]

It doesn't matter, I suppose. Men are pigs and we'll all be happier when we simply come to accept it. :)

WORLD WITHOUT END, AMEN! ;)