UPDATE: 22 33 Dead, 28 15 Injured at Virginia Tech

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It seems the more we know, the worse this story is getting:

At least 22 33 people were killed Monday in a shooting rampage on the Virginia Tech campus, police said. They said the gunman was among the dead.

In addition to those killed, officials said at least 28 15 people were wounded.

As of this writing, students are still in lockdown.  I have a niece at nearby Radford who I just hung up with and at this point, they are not in lockdown.  Keep hitting the link above for updates.  My boys are trying to reach their friends at Tech for further updates.

Pray for the victims and their families.

UPDATE:  The following is an Instant Message exchange I had with a VT student, a good friend of my youngest son and someone we've taken with us on family vacations on a number of occasions.  IM Id's and names were changed for privacy reasons:

[13:07:01] VT Student: alright mr BH, your call whether you want to report this part or not
[13:07:10] VT Student: because i was told that it's kinda secure information
[13:07:23] VT Student: but apparently there's a bomb squad in burress hall right now.
[13:07:33] Mr. BH:  k
[13:07:37] Mr. BH:  Thanks bud
[13:07:41] Mr. BH:  you doin ok?
[13:07:42] VT Student: and that they think that's how this is all tied together
[13:07:50] VT Student: doin fine
[13:07:59] VT Student: kinda holed up my dorm
[13:08:02] VT Student: trying to find out what's going on
[13:08:07] VT Student: my RA is an intern for the DOD
[13:08:12] VT Student: and his boss is the one calling him with all this info
[13:08:28] Mr. BH:  k
[13:08:46] Mr. BH:  I don't want to discount it... but he's definitely reporting stuff that's not coming over the airwaves
[13:08:46] VT Student: basically, no one knows what's going on
[13:08:51] VT Student: oh i know
[13:08:59] VT Student: the airwaves don't agree with the scene around here though
[13:09:00] Mr. BH:  And I was near the Pentagon on 9/11
[13:09:09] VT Student: they're making it sound like things are calming down here
[13:09:10] VT Student: on the news
[13:09:12] Mr. BH:  lots of unsubstantiated rumors that turned out to be false
[13:09:18] VT Student: and we're still on lockdown in our dorms
[13:09:22] Mr. BH:  aight
[13:09:27] Mr. BH:  thanks for keeping me posted
[13:09:30] VT Student: welcome
[13:09:33] VT Student: i'll let you know if i hear anything
[13:09:39] VT Student: and i'm aware of the tendancy of rumors
[13:09:41] VT Student: they can come from anywhere
[13:09:45] Mr. BH:  yep
[13:09:55] Mr. BH:  but for your own sake, stay in the dorm till you hear otherwise
[13:10:08] VT Student: oh believe me
[13:10:09] VT Student: i will.
[13:10:15] VT Student: rumor has is they want to evacuate campus
[13:10:19] VT Student: when they get things more under control
[13:10:24] Mr. BH:  ok
[13:10:30] Mr. BH:  you talk to your parents?
[13:10:37] Mr. BH:  I'm sure they're terrified
[13:10:39] VT Student: briefly earlier
[13:10:45] VT Student: it's my mom's birthday.....
[13:10:53] VT Student: fate's got a cruel sense of humor huh
[13:10:57] Mr. BH:  dang... well your being ok is the best gift
[13:11:24] VT Student: i figured i'd call her again when i actually have good news for her
[13:11:31] Mr. BH:  good idea
[13:11:45] Mr. BH:  I wouldn't share the rumors just yet... it'll just frighten her all the more
[13:11:52] VT Student: my thoughts exactly
[13:12:12] VT Student: i'd rather her not be any more scared than she already is
[13:12:23] VT Student: without hearing about rumors of bombs and multiple gunmen
[13:12:59] Mr. BH:  good call
[13:13:08] Mr. BH:  you there with a roomoe?
[13:13:13] Mr. BH:  *roomie
[13:13:16] VT Student: yeah
[13:13:22] Mr. BH:  your dor closed and locked?
[13:13:25] Mr. BH:  *door
[13:13:43] VT Student: our room doors aren't, but the dorm itself is
[13:13:59] VT Student: apparently SWAT was clearing through a dorm next to ours
[13:14:15] Mr. BH:  I imagine they'll show up at yours shortly
[13:14:24] Mr. BH:  anyone in the hallways?
[13:14:36] VT Student: yes
[13:14:42] VT Student: we're being allowed to go around and talk to eachother
[13:14:43] Mr. BH:  I think it's smart to stay in the dorm... and when they come around, to show your hands clearly
[13:14:47] VT Student: oh yeah
[13:15:02] VT Student: i'll be as cooperative as physically possible
[13:15:04] Mr. BH:  you on the ground floor?
[13:15:10] VT Student: 5th floor
[13:15:12] Mr. BH:  k
[13:15:22] VT Student: and pritchard's a huge place
[13:15:27] VT Student: biggest dorm on campus
[13:15:35] VT Student: so i'd like to think that we have protection nearby due to the fact
[13:15:51] VT Student: we're right accross a "quad" from ambler johnston, where the first shootings happened
[13:16:02] Mr. BH:  I'm sure you do... and again, I want to believe that the shooter(s) are either dead or apprehended
[13:16:21] VT Student: i want to believe that too
[13:16:28] VT Student: but the body count has done nothing but rise
[13:16:32] VT Student: with consequent reportings
[13:16:53] Mr. BH:  I wish I could get you verified information and help cut down on the rumors
[13:17:04] VT Student: me too
[13:17:13] VT Student: it seems like the attention has been focused away from where i am though
[13:17:26] VT Student: so whatever is happening has moved from its original place
[13:17:40] Mr. BH:  You know, I'd recommend, just to be cautious, that you guys shut and lock your dorm doors
[13:17:44] VT Student: yea
[13:17:56] Mr. BH:  you can get info via Im from each other I'm thinking
[13:18:37] VT Student: yea
[13:26:56] Mr. BH:  ...... are you in Slusher?
[13:27:17] VT Student: no i am not
[13:27:20] VT Student: i'm in Pritchard
[13:27:26] Mr. BH:  k...
[13:27:50] Mr. BH:  I guy who works for me's niece in in Slusher
[13:28:55] VT Student: ...they just re-opened dining halls here
[13:29:03] VT Student: so as far as i'm concerned, that's a true sign of all clear
[13:29:07] VT Student: or at least the situation being contained
[13:29:14] Mr. BH:  great news... I agree
[13:29:33] Mr. BH:  are they allowing you guys to leave your dorm yet?
[13:29:51] VT Student: yeah, that's the dining hall announcement
[13:30:07] Mr. BH:  very good...
[13:30:19] VT Student: got an email
[13:30:19] Mr. BH:  now's probably a good time to update your mom
[13:30:20] VT Student: "We have been given clearance to open dining halls and resume operations.  We ask that students limit their movement about the University as police and emergency crews continue their tasks."
[13:30:23] VT Student: yeah
[13:30:26] VT Student: i think i will do so
[13:30:35] Mr. BH:  ok ...... thanks for filling me in
[13:30:47] VT Student: you're welcome
[13:31:21] VT Student: thanks for having a way to honestly inform people about all this
[13:31:33] VT Student: the last thing we need is another news event to misconstrue and blow out of proportion
[13:32:03] Mr. BH:  well, my little ole blog won't get too much attention... but every little bit helps

MORE: Michelle is chock full of info (and has done me the honor of linking to me).

Boing Boing repeats that which I had counselled my sons on earlier today, counsel I hope they pay heed to, counsel I hope they don't dismiss:

I'm sure "Copycat Effect" author Loren Coleman would have something to say about the following exchange, which occurred just now on CNN's "Situation Room" with Wolf Blitzer:

[Gregg MCCrary, Former FBI Special Agent, Fredericksburg, VA]: There is a contagion factor. There is an increased likelihood of more incidents like this happening in the coming weeks. The most important take-home message right now is to be sensitive to this issue...

[Wolf Blitzer] Are you talking about a copycat factor? (...)

[McCrary] Yes. Because there are people who are already on the edge, and events like this can put them over the edge.

STILL MORE: Killer Identified:

We now know the identity of the killer at Virginia Tech.

He is Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old resident alien of the United States, as first reported by ABC News.

Cho is a South Korean national, a Virginia Tech senior majoring in English and the man who killed 33 people — including himself — on the Virginia Tech campus Monday.

Sources tell ABC News that Cho killed two people in a dorm room, returned to his own dorm room where he re-armed and left a "disturbing note," then went to a classroom building on the other side of campus to continue his rampage.

May Cho even now be experiencing the justice and not the mercy of God

Tony Woodlief writes (as only he can):

Now the counselors and journalists and talk show hosts will descend on Blacksburg, bringing with them a secondary wave of psychological damage disguised as "healing" and "talking things out," but which will really be about serving our need to see it, to witness it in safety, perhaps because we are thankful, in an ugly, selfish way most of us have, that it happened to them and not to us, or to our children.

Today there are parents waking up and remembering that their children are dead. There are children waking up and remembering that their parent is dead. Sleep always offers some hope that the world will be different when we awake, but it isn't, is it? I wonder if this is the hopelessness that drove that boy to become a monster. I wonder if his parents will ever smile again.

Judy Miller, a reporter who covered the Columbine killings, had a graceful essay on NPR this morning. In it she mentioned the strangeness of seeing snowflakes swirl about the campus as the killing took place, and how it was similarly snowing in Columbine the day two other boys became monsters. It made me wonder if God was crying, and if the coldness of the world we have made has frozen even his tears.

Relapsed Catholic has some advice for all of us:

Please don't indulge in godless modern paganism and set up homely, self-indulgent makeshift memorials with cheap flowers and teddy bears. Don't hold hands and sing bad pop songs.

Go to church. That's what it's for. For centuries, people smarter than you and with more finely honed aesthetics worked on rituals that actually do what they're supposed to do.

Those people who hung around outside the Palace after Princess Diana's death looked like fools and you will too if you cave to the lure of cheap grace and post-modern superficiality. Those British mourners displayed as much gringe-inducing, pan-generational learned helplessness as Katrina survivors, but their laziness and ignorance was spiritual.

Worse, you will still feel as empty as you did before, maybe more so, and wonder why.

Don't make America look stupid and shallow to the whole world by Disneyfying your grief.

YET MORE: Might this dated piece be an answer?

The Independent School District of Burleson, Texas, just south of Ft. Worth is the first in the country to adopt a policy of training students to immediately fight back and use their advantage in numbers to take tactical control if a gunman enters their classroom.

A group of Texas security experts with a company called "Response Options" has made instructional video tapes showing a gunman bursting into a classroom and being swarmed by students. The instructors tell students to throw their books, book bags, desk and chairs using everything and anything to disrupt and take down a gunman. Robin Browne, a major with the British Army, helped design the training course and says it is necessary for students and teachers to throw themselves into the line of fire.

"This is not a burglar. This is not a bank robber," Browne said. "This is someone who has come onto school property with the express intention of using a deadly weapon to hurt and dominate people who cannot necessarily defend themselves." A person who enters a school, Browne said, "is in the same category as serial killers."

"We are dealing with a predator here and a predator, when he is offered prey and the prey gives in will take advantage of that prey," he said. "What we are teaching here is for the children to not allow the predator to take control. … They actually become the superior the dominant party in the room, and it is actually the gunman who becomes the prey."

Comments

[Scrapiron]

That's why the shooter(s) chained the door behind him. He also knew there were no weapons in the dorms. He had a building full of defenseless people and took advantage of it. Will we never learn? Nope, not as long as there's a BDS suffering liberal alive.

[American Infidel]

Thanks for posting that conversation. Nothing better than getting the news from people there than what people in the MSM are reporting. I think the lessons of Katrina taught us that what they report is not necessarily what they see or whatthe facts are.

And as for your little blog not getting muchplay in this, you are linked through a link from Michelle Malkin now, so you should check your numbers...I bet you are going to have the biggest day yet.

Thanksagain and prayers to all those involved.

[Aunty Em Ericann]

Shame on you for trying to blame liberals, or anyone else.

Thirty-three people have died.

Focus.

With all my love,
Aunty Em

[Je support les troops]

Just think: if guns were properly banned as they are in much of the world, this would have never happened!

[TBinSTL]

Gun free zone signs just advertise your vulnerability. Good thing for this psycho that all the students and staff were kept from having any evil guns in their possession. I'm sure he appreciates that.
God help our country and thank God for those that lived through this and may they find peace.

[Leslie]

I'm sorry to hear such terrible news. Hopefully the authorities are able to find answers quickly...

[Cythen]

My mom just text messaged me saying she's heard it was a chinese student here on a visa who did some of the shooting...

Unfortunately this is going to give legs to that ridiculous AWB, the new one that is without a sunset.

Guns will always be around. Much like DRM, gun control only hurts those who are law abiding citizens - to think otherwise is not very realistic.

[Jeff H]

Aunty Em Ericann: "Shame on you for trying to blame liberals, or anyone else. Thirty-three people have died. Focus. With all my love..."

How much good did your "love" do those helpless victims? Not much, I'd surmise. You'd have done them a greater service if you had helped push through legislation to allow students and staff to defend themselves with firearms.

And as to your suggestion that we not "blame" anyone for this tragedy, I suppose you prefer to live in a world where no amount of planning is considered prudent or even necessary, as random acts of violence will happen anyway. Thanks for helping to doom the rest of us to join you in the line of castrated sheep, waiting for the ax across our necks.

[Jhn'1]

Another blog linked to the channel 7 website with the hospitals involved admitting to 30 patients admitted from VT, 8 critical.
"At Montgomery Regional Hospital 17 patients - 4 patients critical and in surgery
At New River Valley Medical Center 5 patients - 4 stable, 1 critical
At Carilion Roanoke Memorial - 3 patients, all critical
At Lewis Gale Hospital - 5 patients, including one faculty member"
http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/story.asp?S=6376234

[D in New York]

This is such a tragic thing. Im a liberal and a Christian. and I wished that Guns would just be outlawed period except for Law Enforcement.

My heart goes out to those families and the Campus that have dealt with such horror. This is suppoed to be the Season of Resurrection, but so much death is still going on.

Logic tells anyone that this was carefully planned by the killer. That early in the morning on a Monday, people are still sleeping, or hard to rise to get ready for class. Many of the dorms probably dont even have people watching the doors/desks that early. And all college dorms these days have some type of secured entry that requires something to get in. Something tells me that when all is released, this was a Student or employee that went mad.

As a student, I wish everyone well. The school year is almost over everywhere coast to coast and i know it is so hard to end things on such a horrible term.

[Jhn'1]

Aunty Em, you do realize that to get a CCW, you have to first be of age to own a pistol (21), second pass a background check, third pass a class where the largest part of that class is instruction on when you cannot carry a firearm, or use a firearm legally, and the liabilities for carrying one at all (a test on the class requires a passing grade in order to get the CCW)(I don't know of any states that allow any nonpolice CCW in bars). Fourth is in most states a competency test ( I don't know what the standards in Virginia are, but the various states range from a low of what a police officer must pass in that state, and some states have pretty low state standards, to near SWAT scores to pass the competency part).
I would propose that you have less to fear from those of your fellow citizens who choose to comply with the above in order to obtain that CCW permit than you do the malcontents who don't care if they (or deliberately wish to) harm you and yours.

[traccan]

Jeff H: "You'd have done them a greater service if you had helped push through legislation to allow students and staff to defend themselves with firearms." Yes, that would be a greater service, I'm sure. Do you think that there aren't plenty of psychopaths roaming our campuses IN ADDITION to the ones who can actually get their hands on semi-automatics easily to start mowing people down?? What a great idea...put guns in EVERYBODY'S hands, so that we're assured that the most amount of pathologically ill people have the ability to go on rampages. Honestly, honestly... It infuriates me how Americans respond to internal crises, and how incapacitated they are at being able to widen their view to the structural issues that form the background to these monstrous events.

Let's take a look at where the most brutal school-related shooting sprees have occurred over the past 35 years. Hmmm...Austin, Tx; Boone, NC; Paducah, KY; Littleton, Co; Blacksburg, VA. I imagine that it's only coincidence that without exception these mass killing sprees have only happened in the states with the loosest gun-control laws. No massacres at NYU? No one running rampage at Penn State? How about at University of Maine-Orono? No? Aren't there plenty of lunatics in New York and New Haven too? I am so thankful I don't live south of the Mason-Dixon line, and I never will.

To all those families who lost loved ones in such a senseless and brutal waste of young lives, my heart can only reach out to you in sympathy. I can't even begin to fathom the pain you must be feeling.

To those whose views match Jeff's, just do us all a favor, and secede from the union, form your own wacko country where people can take each other out with weapons just like the good 'ol days of Hickock and Cassidy.

D

"Logic tells anyone that this was carefully planned by the killer. That early in the morning on a Monday"
Not that difficult to plan.
obtain weapon legally or otherwise.
obtain many magazines for above weapons.
obtain ammunition to fit same.
obtain vest to hold same.
buy chain and locks at area large hardware store.
Place in bookbag or small backpack like most students use.
walk in with group of students as the first "swipes in" and the rest go in the already open door.
wait until class period starts so hallway and entrances are clear of observers.
chain and lock doors like many clubs and establishments open to students regularly do with doors that they don't want to be opened at that time.
Nothing dificult or requiring brilliance to figure out.
And then pick where to start executing children taught by their teachers to behave as sheep. If every student in those classrooms he shot at had thrown everything they had at him, books, laptops, bookbags, chairs, ect. he might have been injured enough early enough for somebody to have stopped it earlier. That first class would likely have still died, but if they had resisted he might have left before killing all of them, or the second class might have had a better chance. Even more so for the third.
Or one single CCW holder paying attention (as long as he or she was not the first shot in the building) A gunman has to seek out his victims. Each set. Each time. A defender not in that first area of attack could wait for that gunman to enter the class, and shoot as reasonable ID is made. From already aimed at the doorway, usually from a bit of a side angle. Two pistols mean no cop, so a defender likely would not have to wait until the gunman's face came into view. Depending on the classroom construction a defender might be able to shoot through the flimsy wall adjacent to the doorway at the area the gunman's body would have to be. Even if they were in the first area if they were not first shot there would be a chance better than Russian Roulette with a semiautomatic. Which is what most of them got.

one description claimed that the gunman went in a line killing each as "their turn" came up (survivor played dead)(possibly some rushed him and were killed first as otherwise somebody falling down when they had not been shot at would have been obvious)
United 93 on 9-11 decided not to be sheep.
same for AA 63 when Richard Reid tried to light his shoe.

The "plan" was enabled by many years of "don't fight ever", and "force is always wrong", and "we can talk about it" indoctrination by the governmental schools those kids were subjected to.

And that is nothing that gunman was responsible for any more than he was responsible for sunshine. he could take advantage of it, but I doubt he caused it.

"Many of the dorms probably don't even have people watching the doors/desks that early. And all college dorms these days have some type of secured entry that requires something to get in."

for the first student in line, the rest follow in the already open door.

"This is such a tragic thing. I'm a liberal and a Christian. and I wished that Guns would just be outlawed period except for Law Enforcement."

Like the Black community was forced to depend upon during and after "Reconstruction"? Governmental forces unwilling (or unable) to provide protection are sometimes the problem, not the solution.

The US Supreme Court has ruled that the police have no responsibility to protect you, personally, unless you are incarcerated or involuntarily committed to a mental health institution. Otherwise you have made choices that decided (or at least influenced) your personal safety and the police have no direct responsibility except for the aforementioned two classes.
You live in gun-free DC. You picked it so live or die with the results.
You have unsavory neighbors who are dealing drugs and those trying to buy regularly rob the neighborhood to obtain the money to buy the drugs? You can move away.
You work at a Postal sort center that has had 10 shooting incidents in the last 3 years? Quit.
The Police legally have no obligation to protect you or your family, only society as a whole, and if that did not happen to include you, then you should have made other arrangements. Like buy a gun, and learn how to use it.
And that is the Law of this country.

[Jhn'1]

traccan
Seems to me I recall a certain incident just outside NYC involving a certain Colin Ferguson
http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=shooting+deaths+train+new+york+Colin+Ferguson&btnG=Search+Archives&scoring=t
And conveniently overlook that when Charles J. Whitman went on a killing spree in 1962, "irresponsible" frat boys ran back to their fraternities to get their own deer rifles and returned fire, limiting Whitman to shooting angles he had cover for and drastically restricting his shooting angles and likely enabling the officers to reach the tower alive to enter it and stop the rampage.
And you blame Columbine which happened 8 years ago upon the CCW laws that Colorado passed less than 4 years ago(May 18, 2003. (must have been time travel)
And the WONDERFUL straw man about arming "Everybody".
No, just those that have already been approved by the state of Virginia for Concealed Weapons Permits.

[stig]

Traccan,
your comments dont stand scrutiny.
Australia has some of the strictest gun laws in the world, but we still hold the world record for the worst gun massacre - Port Arthur- Martin Bryant.
google it.

"if guns were properly banned as they are in much of the world, this would have never happened!"
Oye ve

[traccan]

Jhn1, Thank you for the Colin Ferguson link; that one did escape my grasp. Funny how the media picks and chooses its events rather randomly (although number of casualties is always the fundamental decision-breaker) to the degree that some tragedies go unnoticed while others get blown up to WW3.

My argument is most vehemently NOT intended to suggest that the elimination of, or stringent restricitions applied on, weaponry will turn the world into Utopia. It is my 'bandaid' solution, that seems to me to be based in a relatively strong logic that the way to decrease violent deaths isn't by making one of the more fundamental modes of committing violent death more, rather than less, easier.

If we really want to 'solve' these kinds of problems we have to take a look at how individuals get to such desperate states that, as the anonymous reviewer clearly highlights, these highly-planned and strategic acts are carried out. I'm willing to bet money that whoever this person turns out to be, whatever events in his life led to Monday, it could have been stopped last month, last week, or maybe even yesterday, had someone paid some kind of attention to this person at any point along the way. For what is clear with Littleton, and what will most likely turn out to be clear again here, is that this individual was likely viciously neglected, abused, lacking any kind of support structure or network in which he could rely on at times of crisis or all the mini-breaking points that lead up to the final one. And, more than likely, all of this from his very birth.
Neglectful, abusive parenting, a State (or government, if you will) that, again, (the anonymous poster so eloquently states) could give a fig for any of one us, withdrawing its support systems like universal access to psychiatric and medical care, social welfare, to compensate for the horrid parenting, the bullying, etc., and a university structure that makes the medieval and renaissance ideal of the academy as a safe haven for quiet, supported reflection and rigorous study, an absolute joke, considering the amount of hours a student must work, or debt she must incur, to just get a friggin BA or BSc. (The keg parties, the sex, the drugs, are the only logical mediator between full-time study and full-time work to stop from going insane). And don't forget this is VA Tech not Princeton or Swarthmore, where only a small percentage of the kids are getting studies subsidized by scholarship or wealthy parents.

So yeah. Point being, if you notice the water in the tub is reaching the top, it seems to me that it makes more sense to shut off the tap, rather than let it just overflow to the point where it floods out the entire house including the basement. Makes no sense to me to turn the tap on full blast, until water is seeping out from every pore of the house, although it would be interesting to see what would happen if gun laws were even looser than they are now.

The CCW requirements don't appease me one bit. I don't feel more secure flying on a plane knowing the guy sitting next to me could be packing a handgun, a can of mace or whatever... whether he's a marshall or a terrorist. Split-second decisions aren't enough for bullets, and that's all you get when it comes to reacting to a potential threat.

An executive at a company I used to work for bought a gun at one point because of a rash of neighborhood robberies, and he frequently left his wife and kid to go on business trips. One night they were all in bed, he hears a noise out in the hall at about 3 am, grabs the gun, walks out, there is a black-clothed figure standing in the middle of the hall. He points the gun, tells the guy to freeze, the guy pulls out a pocket-knife, lays it on the floor, tells him he's not further armed. At this moment, the homeowner's 8-year old son comes out of his bedroom which is between the top of the stairs and the intruder. The intruder attempts to flee down the stairs (he said later in the amubulance this was because he was scared he was about to die, and didn't know what the hell to do). Problem is, the father interprets it as a step toward the child, pulls the trigger instantly, two shots to the stomach, the 14-year old kid who broke into the house because his mom lost her job 2 weeks prior, and his friends told him that this might be the only way to survive until she can get work again, dies 48 hours later. Now, I'm not condoning the kid's actions. I'm not saying that what the father did in the situation was wrong. The point is just to illustrate that the INSTANTANEOUSNESS of the mechanism of the gun firing the fatal shots, happens on instinct, and way, way faster than the thought process that one would normally use to try and take a course of action without the gun in hand. And you can't take it back... this man lost his job, had a nervous breakdown that it took him 10 years to recover from, and he frequently said he'd sooner die from an attack then ever kill someone again from (partial) error. And let's face it... if you're 14, you've known nothing but poverty, you make a stupid mistake one night because you're scared and have no way out, death isn't really a fitting punishment.

And as far as 'preparing' for these kinds of incidents: I'm sorry, but as much as they seem to be happening with increasing frequency, I can't live my life worrying about what to do in the event some shooter barges into the middle of my Hegel lecture. Like the terrorist, these people feed on our insecurities, want control over us, and gloat over knowing that they've made us a little bit more paranoid. There's way more chance of dying walking to class, driving to the grocery store, catching some obscure flu, getting caught in a tornado...

I'd rather keep on my path to becoming a psychotherapist and help understand what causes these things to happen, and work to prevent them from happening, than hurling my 'laptop' (which I don't even own, nor do any of my current classmates) across the room at the next psychopath that walks in.

(And I'd rather not have my argument refuted by 'fact' after 'fact'...it's full of speculation, and all facts do is contradict speculation. That doesn't mean that there isn't a place for speculative argument AND factual reporting...just that they can't be used to offset one another, because they operate on totally different planes).

[traccan]

Oh, and just one more little thing to Jhn1, to be fair, I DID say 'school-related' shootings in the past 35 years... you must be caught in the same sort of weird time-travel loop I am, because by my math (which is admittedly awful) 1962 falls a bit short ;-)

But.. now I'M the one doing the nit-picking I've just pleaded that doesn't help us get anywhere....

[SRPax]

Yes. Let's blame the guns, the liberals, the media, and the video games. Let's blame his foriegn culture, his girlfried, his parents, and his school officials. Let's blame the person who sold him the gun, the doctors who prescribed him pills, the students who didn't respond quickly enough - who didn't "rush him", and the ones who died trying to get away.
Let's sling insults at each other and curse and scream and rant and rave. Let's all speculate about how WE could have stopped it, about how WE have better ideas on how this all SHOULD have been handled.

Meanwhile thirty-three holes will be dug in the ground. Thirty-three grave markers will be made. Thirty-three families will bury their loved ones far too soon and say goodbye far too early.

Maybe instead of blaming everything under the sun we need to focus on the fact that this was a tragedy, devised by a sick person. Maybe instead of screaming at each other about how wrong everyone else is, we should be asking what can we do to help.

Sometimes bad things happen, and there's nothing you can do about it. That's the way of the world. What separates us from monsters like Cho Seung-Hui is our capacity for love, forgiveness, change, and compassion. I'm sure everyone at Virginia Tech has had enough fighting - let's give them a little of that compassion now.

[John]

Traccan,

If an intruder turned towards my son, I'd pull the trigger without question. I would be willing to let the guy go, but I'm not willing to take a chance that immediate harm will come to others. I might be in therapy for the rest of my life for shooting, but if I stood there and let my son be harmed, I'd be in therapy for the rest of my life anyway.

BTW, there are resources for kids in the burglar's situation. I know, because I volunteer for some of them. This kid made a stupid choice, and he unfortunately paid a very high price for it, as did the victims he tried to rob.

[traccan]

John,

Yes, I probably would have pulled the trigger myself in the same situation. If I had the gun in my hand.

And there are resources for people in these situations, but there aren't enough, and they aren't easily obtainable. You have to know where to go, how to apply, etc. etc. in the first place.

According to one of Cho's instructors at VA Tech, on the ABC news site : "Roy told ABC News that Cho seemed "extraordinarily lonely—the loneliest person I have ever met in my life." "

[David]

As a Virginia Tech student, I'd like to take two minutes to say that "Relapsed Catholic" can go to hell.

Anyone who suggests they know the "correct" way to grieve in this situation has obviously not been there. But to go as far as to say that we should avoid "holding hands," making "self-indulgent makeshift memorials," and instead go to church because "people smarter than [us]" have designed the rituals which take place...

Doesn't sound very Christian to me, ordering people around with how to deal with a very personal thing: grief. Oh wait, actually, that does sound overly Christian.

This is not the time or the place to criticize HOW students who were involved with this choose to grieve. But to then include that we shouldn't make America look "stupid and shallow" by "Disneyfying" our grief?

So this is a Christian, American issue here? Not an issue of student safety in places of higher learning? Not a deeply personal, highly offensive act of malice which has reminded us Hokies (and consequently everyone, thanks to the modern media) that hate can happen anywhere?

Oh, and one last thing...

"John" and "Traccan": I'm glad you two can turn this whole thing into a pissing match where the two of you compare e-knowledge and stay stubborn static in your opinions. Hopefully I can do the same when you've have friends shot in the past 72 hours. Thanks for your tact in handling this delicate situation.

[Mike R.]

David,

Out of the 22 previous comments, yours is the only one holding any weight. As a catholic, I am somewhat embarrased by the "Relapsed Catholic." That type of attitude is probably why I am not a "practicing" catholic.

My heart goes out to you and the rest of the VATech community. I'm so sorry that others have turned your tragedy into some kind of pissing match. Your in my thoughts and prayers.

[Rick]

Confession time.

I posted the Relapsed Catholic's words because on initial read, it hit me between the eyes as someone who doesn't go to church and as someone who thought that church is where I ought to go to deal with these events.

I then spoke to my oldest son and now read David's words and think that perhaps I'd posted it in haste (though a part of me still thinks that RC has a point).

So... my apologies for the offense to David and others... and I've asked Kathy (the Relapsed Catholic) to respond here if she can to David's words... not to get into a pissing contest but to perhaps add an explanation, justification, substantiation for her position.

David, thanks for stopping by. I continue to hold the victims, their families and the VT community in prayer.

[Leslie]

Sigmund, Carl and Alfred are talking about mourning and ways to mourn. After reading it, it seems to me that Relapsed Catholic does have a point, but maybe it is one that speaks most to how society as a whole approaches things...those kinds of points always create a unique tension with an individual's experience.

Anyway, I got a lot out of reading Sig this morning.

[traccan]

David,

I just want to point you to my very first post where I said sincerely, and reiterate now "To all those families (and of course, friends) who lost loved ones in such a senseless and brutal waste of young lives, my heart can only reach out to you in sympathy. I can't even begin to fathom the pain you must be feeling."

I am sorry that you view my comments as tactless and that my primary goals were to engage in a pissing match, but all I was attempting to do was vent anger and frustration about a tragedy, and to think up solutions to preventing such tragedies in the future (perhaps as doesn't do any good, as today we have the Galveston thing happening).

To me, the tactlessness already happened when the first comments were posted about increasing gun circulation as a mode of preventing such violence, and my priority is to refute such silliness wherever I come across it..I am a student too, so believe me when I say that I am not unconcerned about security on campuses and the primacy of student safety. It infuriates me, however, when bureacracy makes it simpler for angry young men to get guns and shoot people, than for school counsellors and professors to go through years of red-tape to get help for someone they suspect is capable of a violent act. If I'm 'staying stubborn static' in my opinions on this, it's because I have conviction about it, and am willing to back up my arguments about it with anyone who disagrees.

Your comments make me question, though, whether and when the time is right to question these things. Maybe we do need time to heal before getting involved in heated polemics. Maybe I don't have as much right to debate these issues as those who were involved and are struggling with loss as we speak. I don't know the answers to these questions, but the fact that you've made me question them, suggests that I am willing to consider whether I've made an error in judgement.

And, I fully agree with David's comments about the media turning the microscope on the affair, and the speed with which everything gets circulated on the internet, e-knowledge mixing with rumour, fact and opinions (some well-informed, others clearly in left-field.) But, on the other hand, to quote the cheesy NBC ads that used to come on during Saturday morning cartoons... "the more you know".... I still believe in the power of knowledge being able to correct the mistakes of history, despite the mounting evidence to the contrary. It's just that with the new forms of knowledge, it's a lot harder to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

Again, to all those at VA Tech, you have a concerned friend up north at University of Toronto. I hope you truly believe it.
Traccan.

[dl]

Please sue the school now for wrongful death. The school encouraged the people to consider the area a safe place although no meaningful steps were taken to make the area a safe place. The school prevented the people from providing self security or self defense. The school failed to acknowledge a known mental risk. Please help protect future students by requiring the school to acknowledge responsibility in this tragedy.