A thought to ponder

I am convinced that a biblical theology and a sound apologetic is the balm to life's deepest wounds and the torch for its darkest pits. Only in Christ do we find the one who can provide coherent answers to life's most probing questions; only through the Cross do we find meaning in suffering. We find the holy ground of God's broken heart and body, crushed for our iniquity, broken that we may find Him. We find the one who not only bore our sin but bore our sorrows. And in our relationship with God, found in Christ, made possible by the Cross, we find the one who not only is, but is here.  -- Jill Carattini

UPDATE:  In the interests of balanced reporting, another perspective.

It takes discipline to focus on oneself and to keep oneself focused on his side of the road of life.When I place focus and divert my attention to others I immediately take the focus off myself and lose my own direction. As a matter of fact, by being so focused on another is a clear indication that I am not focused on myself. . .when I have my attention on you, it is not on myself.  If my attention is not on myself, I am only wandering aimlessly through life or I am avoiding where God may be attempting to take me.

...Leslie

Comments

[rick]

Oh wow, I found myself here. I am not sure how the context of the two topics are related.

Nevertheless I agree with much of what Jill said. What I find to be the healing balm is that God became human in an effort to seek and make humanity whole and through the Cross, God completed what God started out to do, God returned us to the Garden. The Word became flesh. We don't endure suffering because God did, but rather when we suffer, God suffers with us.

[rick]

Oops! It wasn't Jill's words that I was agreeing with it was Ravi Zacharias'. Interesting guy.

[Leslie]

Better double check the link. Under the RZIM banner and above the title "A Holy Ground" you'll find Jill Carattini is the author.

But yes you're right, Ravi Zacharias is interesting -- especially these days when feelings seem to influence the faith more handily than fact.

As to the relation of the two posted paragraphs I thought people could decide for themselves.

[Rick]

The contrast in the two paragraphs is stark and telling.

In one, man is made the focus and in reality, it's more than that, self reigns supreme. It's an outlook marked by pop pschology and navel gazing.

In the other, God rightly (and biblically) assumes center stage. Life, death, suffering, joy all find meaning in the work of God and most especially in the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ.

Although I'm a most flawed person to be saying it, I'll say nevertheless that Jill Carattini's focus seems to me to be the one that we should all emulate and embrace.

The rest is psychobabbling modern day pop rot.

[rick]

Rick and Leslie,

As I write I am laughing out loud. Here's why, the both of you are "rubbernecking." This really is funny. You both actually made my point. Thanks.

When we are so focused on others and where their lives are wrong, we often fail to look at our own lives and what God is attempting to do with us. That was my point.

I find it hard to believe that either of you are that dense that you could not see that was the point of my post, but hey, if you two want to stand up on Blogworld and shout, "I am an idiot" then feel free.

I am still laughing out loud...

Thanks for the chuckles, now go out their and kill your enemies!

[Zossima]

>>I am convinced that a biblical theology and a sound apologetic is the balm to life's deepest wounds and the torch for its darkest pits.

I absolutely love the quote (Jill's or Ravi's?) except for the first sentence. I would hope that for Jill and Ravi the proof of Jesus does not rest in a "sound apologetic". What could be more man-centered than that? The idea that we know God by having a right method of knowing him? That is wholly unbiblical. The rest of the wonderful statement is made true because Jesus became incarnate and because he is alive and working in our lives and because the Church on its best days incarnates this same Jesus.

As we've talked previously, Leslie, the danger of seeking sound apologetics is that we become Bible-idolaters and not Christ-ian. It is the danger of legalism. There is also the danger of arrogantly thinking that my apologetic is sound and yours is not.

I am not convinced that "biblical theology" (whatever that is, though it probably embodies this impossible idea that we can know what the Bible says objectively) and "sound apologetic" (which probably means hers and not mine) are the balm to anything. But I'm convinced that Jesus is. I'm convinced that his people are. I'm convinced that surrender to him is. Yes, the Word is critical for pointing the way to Christ. But the Word without the Spirit and the Word without the people of God doing the deeds of God is just words.

We've had hundreds of years of apologetics, yet America is less christian than ever. It's time to try something new.

[Leslie]

Dear Black Knight of the square (so very square) table from the Order of what has now been upgraded to Idiot:

Do you see how postmodernism seems to make discussions about personal truths a personal attack?

Signed,
Ordered by the White Knight To Go Out "Their" and Kill My Enemies.

[Leslie]

Hey Zossima!! You always have perfect timing.

I think studying to know the truth about God is a good thing. People make all kinds of claims about God & Jesus all the time, and if we don’t have a way of sifting fact from fiction we have no choice but to sail on every zephyr of an idea that wafts by.

Legalism & arrogance are always a danger, but they aren't a part of "sound" theology.

What I read Jill to be saying (And it is Jill, writing for RZ’s organization. Although I imagine he’d agree.) is that the path to knowing Jesus intimately is learning the truth about him. How can you have an intimate relationship with someone if you don’t know who they really are? On the playground, I see how nothing is more devastating to a child than a lie that misrepresents the truth about him or her. It is alienating and isolating. Wise children seek to find out whether or not the claims are true – often a tight bond is quickly formed between the seeker and the rejected. How much more important is it to ensure that we are believing accurate claims about our God?

Reading Jill often as I do, I don’t find her to be a her-views-over-anyone-else’s kind of person. Furthermore, she acknowledges the balance that must be struck.

Fredrick Buechner says that man cannot live his life only within his skull. In this instance, I was reminded just how true it is that the mind cannot sever itself from the heart. In the midst of presenting the apologetics that govern my life and offering the reasons for the hope that is within me, with one simple question I was swept back to that tender spot and reminded of my desperate need for these reasons, for the God that intimately reaches both my heart and my mind.

[Rick]

I find it hard to believe that either of you are that dense that you could not see that was the point of my post, but hey, if you two want to stand up on Blogworld and shout, "I am an idiot" then feel free.

I love it when members of the Religious Left drop the pretense of niceness, the veneer of tolerance and the superficiality of what they deem to be "loving" and just cut loose with what in reality they're all about.

The other Rick has done so here. David has done so over at Fearfully Human. And Dawn, a commenter at David's place, joins the fray with this shot:

I find it mildly amusing and a lot sad that someone would have to find their way to someone's personal blog to continue such ugliness in order to be "right". David never mentioned your name, Rick, nor did he post a link to the whole mess, so those of us who did not frequent the other blog would not have known to whom he was referring. But here you are, making a slightly awkward situation a lot worse by attacking David in a forum where he has every right to vent his frustrations because it's HIS blog. And since you opened this can of worms, and showed us all where to find the details to all this, I would like to voice my opinion. I agree with what David said to you. For some reason, when someone is going through their own personal journey and shares about it, some of us feel it is our right and duty to bring theological clarity. The guy who originally posted was sharing where he is at on his journey, he is in a beautiful and delicate place. He did not ask any questions that warranted any theological answers.

So Dawn agrees with David that I'm a Dark Knight (of the oh so square table) and that I'm an a**hole that might've screwed up someone's "beautiful and delicate place" because I quoted Muggeridge and Tolstoy to him. And I'm a bad guy because I went over to David's place and let people know that the person he's calling an a**hole has a face and lives and breathes. Dawn ignores what David's done, and I'm the bad guy.

Sigh.

Ya gotta love the Christian left. Or should I say the Christ following left.

Makes you want to emulate them doesn't it?

[Leslie]

I guess that's what has made the truth such a big deal to me. When someone wears a saint suit while sending out distinctly different vibes, it can be, well...you know. Examining the truths of Jesus help me sort out the reasons behind the animosity. By their fruits ye shall know them and all that.

I'm a sinner. I fail. To say that the good I do is a result of my own effort places me squarely in the midst of a giant contradiction, because for every act of good I do there are a ton of times I could've and didn't. But the good news is God has redeemed me. Like a marionette's moves are really those of the puppeteer, so any good moves I make are a result of God's effort. And when I cut myself loose, I fall short. We all have.

The fact that God does not expect us to be perfect, and is willing to provide us with *his* perfectness is so liberating.

I'm sorry about all that stuff over at David's. What makes me most sorry is that your genuine offering of a few points of interest were misconstrued as antagonism, which wasn't your intent. That's really too bad.

The church is attacking itself. Only a miracle will heal the wound.

[Rick]

Leslie,

I appreciate your sorrow and your humble spirit.

I now stand accused of being one who "looks for fights and confrontations and he does it in the name of God".

This I find to be an amazing development. Nowhere do I pretend to speak for God or act in His name, whether on this blog (which has a convenient Google Search ability) or in life generally. In fact, if anyone were to follow my Plainly Personal links I think they'd see someone who's much less confident of his standing with God than most.

To attempt to portray me as speaking for God without a shred of evidence to support it (and more in fact to deny it) is to willfully and intentionally be dishonest and indeed slanderous. And this from someone whose profile states he's interested in knowing what God is doing in other people's souls... as if he's able to discern it with confidence and aplomb. And although he confesses to lacking the guts to follow Jesus, he seems more than up to the task to intentionally tell lies about other people. I'm sure his Jesus would approve.

But this is something I've come to expect from the fundamentalist left. When their ideas and notions are questioned, when their assertions and claims are placed in doubt, they resort to 1) censoring their opponent and/or 2) engaging in willful ad hominems to besmirch their character.

Although I've found myself at odds with some of my Christian conservative brethren over one thing or another, I know that I'll never join the ranks of Christian liberals, so many of whom are conspicuously dubious and more fundamentalist than they care to admit.

Sad indeed. And telling.

[Leslie]

Ah yes, other rick.

I guess he’s decided rubbernecking isn’t so bad after all. His spelling seems to be improving a bit, so I’m happy to see that working better for him.

Ideologically, there are some interesting patterns at work. A very smart person once said to me, “I find it an act of such extreme hubris for people to claim to know the mind of God as if they are equals.” He’s had a few too many people try to “be Jesus” to him, and finds it a little flaky.

Earlier, Christians used to embrace the call to holy living and along came the temperance movements and holy indignation when someone put their elbows on the table or whatever. Today, the emerging church claims to be turning from that and other things, but continues to say that “we will be judged based on the good works that we do”, so instead we have a different list of condemned activities all flowing from the same line of thought.

As I’ve observed this whole Christ-follower thing I haven’t heard much about sin, or thankfulness for what Christ has done, or any marvelling at the fact that a larger-than-the-universe-sized God is with us at all.

All I’ve been able to see so far are eyes focussed entirely upon human action. And, as it was in the early part of the last century, it is in the early part of this century: people feeling they will be judged based on their good works developing an increasing tendency to evaluate the works of others. That’s where you come into play.

As I’m typing this I’m astounded by the fact that this is just a prideful recycling of the church’s problems in the past. There is nothing new under the sun.

Most importantly though, is this. In the same way people then thought they were doing the right thing, those in the emerging church of today are equally confident of their actions. I don’t know how it is for you, but for me, I find that the very things about myself that I take the most pride in are the things that turn out to be the most problematic. So too has it been in the church.

I grow more and more convinced that there is no other option for Christians than to approach the world with full recognition of the sinful state they started out in and loud thanksgiving for that which God has taken away. Then the conversation isn’t ‘look what I’m doing’ or ‘look what that BH Rick’s doing’, it is instead ‘look at what has been done for me’ and ‘look at the one who did it’. That's the real solution to rubbernecking.

[Rick]

Leslie,

You've expressed yourself well, with diplomacy, with grace, with wisdom and effectively, in my view.

I have other thoughts going through my head, thoughts left well enough alone inside the noggin and not to be aired for others to read (or hear).

Suffice it to say that it's a good thing, no, a great, great thing, that I am not God.

I haven't the patience necessary or the mercy required to deal with those who intentionally slander and smear another absent any evidence, absent any sound reason, absent anything except malice.

The more I see and read what other Christ-followers are doing in besmirching me personally, the more I'm glad that you're here to express for me that which I ought to say and not that which I want to say.

Thanks, once more, Leslie. You're very much appreciated.

[Leslie]

Thanks Rick. I sure appreciate you being so generous with your blog.

Maybe substitute teaching has got me all philosophical about the human condition. Reception of sarcasm, absence of sound reasoning, and unearned besmirchings are all in a day's work. I'm paid to keep the cussing between my ears. :)

It takes all kinds of people to make a world. I, for one, have often appreciated your direct approach.

[Presbypoet]

Leslie,
As a poet, who seems to speak for God (note the blog title). There is a very important detail. God wants us to listen to Him. Not to the Bible, not to a minister or priest (or priestess), but to Him. Many people know the Bible, but don't know God. They can tell you all about Jesus, give you all the facts, quote scripture, have 500 verses for every occasion, yet not understand what the scripture means. What I find interesting about liberal christianity, is how it is focused on following the teachings of Jesus, not on following Jesus.

Back in November 2003, this poem came unasked early one morning as I awoke.

Why You Hear Me

Your wisdom
is foolishness.
You don’t impress Me
with what you know.

You think you
understand Me.
You have no way
to comprehend My plan.

Yet the simplest of fools
with nothing to offer
can hear Me
and obey Me.

Don’t be so proud
I speak to you.
I speak to all.
Only a few listen.
Isaiah 29:14, Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, First Corinthians 1:18-25
© Presbypoet, November 29, 2003, Heard at 5:45 AM

I'm not speaking for God, but hearing Him, and trying to be obedient. Then asking forgiveness for sins of omission and commission. You want humbling, try waking up hearing those words. (I added the Bible verses that seemed related).

[Rick]

Presby,

This fool would love to hear from Him as clearly.

[Leslie]

I second Rick's sentiments Presby. What a poignant message.